Curse

Priceykins · Apr 19, 2007, 07:57 AM // 07:57

We all know about the recent SR balance, and the debating it has caused.

Well yesterday we had a dev message that called the new SR implemntation "unelegant", well I have an idea that I propose would fix it, and fit in with the whole soul reaping idea.

The idea is that soul reaping no longer rewards energy just for deaths in the area of your necro, in my method you would have to activly do something to reap those souls.

I propose that the enerfy gain from soul reaping remains what it is now, or even reverts back to the old energy gain if the new one would be too much.

However the method of receiving this energy will totally change. To get the energy gain from SR, you have to either have a hex on the target at the moment of death, or have a spell/wand attack take the last of their hp and cause the death. This fits with the soul reaping theme quite nicely does it not?

On the subject of mms, either a spell/hex from the necro must be on their when a foe dies, or a minion must take the last of the life from a foe to gain the energy. This could mean mms gain rather alot of energy, however, it may be possible to gain only half energy from a minnion kill, hard to code I would assume, but it could work.

This would mean energy is no longer gained from freindly spirits or minnions, but can be gained from the necro activly destroying these targets.

This is still oepn to abuse with Aoe hexes, however, as far as I have seen, these are mainly used in Pve, where the energy gain really does not effect balance, and as not many folk in PvP use FoC anymore, or the curses aoe degen hex(cant remember name right now, and im in uni so I cant check GW unfortunately).

This I feel would reduce the overall energy gain from SR to a balanced level, while actually making necros, of which I am one(or at least I play one), work for their pay off

Well thats my idea, so let the debating commence.

*ignore the s in the title, dunno why i even put it there* -edit to add this line

Fender · Apr 19, 2007, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Sorry, but I don't like your solution. Here's mine:

SR energy gain = (SR / 2) + 2, rounded down (just like death magic and minion cap)
0,1 = 2
2,3 = 3
4,5 = 4
6,7 = 5
8,9 = 6
10,11 = 7
12,13 = 8
14,15 = 9
16, 17 = 10

Then scale it based on relative level and possibly include a no energy from spirits clause and/or only energy from controlled minions. Assume lvl 20 necro w/ 10 SR for these examples.
A level 6 spirit dies: 6 / 20 * 7 = 2 (or 0)
A level 8 spirit dies: 8 / 20 * 7 = 3 (or 0)
A level 18 minion dies: 18 / 20 * 7 = 6 (if you controlled it)
A level 20 PvP char dies: 20 / 20 * 7 = 7 (30% reduction)
A level 24 mob dies: 24 / 20 * 7 = 8
A level 28 mob dies: 28 / 20 * 7 = 10 (same as old levels)

This knocks about 30% of the energy from SR out, but still gives back the old levels if you are fighting level 28 mobs, with a slight reduction for MMs since their own minion deaths don't give back quite as much.

BSSuperman · Apr 19, 2007, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Just put it back to how it was - getting a return every five seconds makes no sense. If it has to be 'fixed' then make it so that there is a reduced range so that the Necro has to be close to whatever died in order to Reap that Soul. Maybe Aggro distance. Dying spirits shouldnt give any energy return. Souls belong to living things.

Ergo -
Minions and spirits and undead opponents dying = No Energy return
Pets, people and diseased things dying - Energy return.

MithranArkanere · Apr 19, 2007, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Nope, nope. Having to use hexes is not the point. Why to? You currently can make a lot of useful and working N builds that do no use a single Hex. And necromancers do not always deal the last hit, many times they are deal by fast weapon strikers or elementalists. Would just be luck.

Undead enemies are basically a souls that do not want to lave a corpse.
Minions are basically flesh animated by 'spirits' you infuse on them.
Spirits are soul themselves, so if they are 'released' you can gather them.

You know what would be cool?
Making the 'souls' stay near the corpse, you have to get nearby the 'soul' to 'gather' it... and only Necromancers would be able to see them, and would have to move around to pick them.
That would be cool... but, like your idea, won't work for this.

I do like the more energy per level idea, though.

azrael-angel · Apr 19, 2007, 07:14 PM // 19:14

/not signed

horrible idea, would mean a pure support character (say bip) would have to actively take part in killing, in which he would die instantly, and just generally, its horrible, minions, although strong rarely finish targets off, and having a hex?, that would mean you would need to put one in every build!

Fender, i like your idea, have it so you get a certain amount of energy per death depending on your rank in SR.

Personally, i think as they have nerfed SR, they should nerf the living daylights out of Expertise, as thats as, if not MORE overpowered than SR, as SR requires you to kill things.

tenshi_strife · Apr 19, 2007, 09:48 PM // 21:48

yea i have to say i like fender's idea cause it would return Sr to its former glory with a minior nerf but Mithran's idea is kinda cool and i wouldnt mind that. lol.

XvArchonvX · Apr 19, 2007, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Personally, I think they should just cap the maximum amount of energy you can gain over a period of time. Making energy gain come every 5 seconds makes energy management just plain akward when there is little death occuring, but the old method made energu gain insane when there was large scale deaths. Simply capping energy gain when it gets ridiculous and letting low energy gain remain the same seems the most logical way to fix the problem imo. As for how much energy should be permitted to be gained over a period of time, I will leave to a math wiz.

tenshi_strife · Apr 20, 2007, 01:41 AM // 01:41

yea that seems reasonable, hum idk i would say 50 energy over 10 seconds would be good, enough to be usable but not tooo much.

VinnyRidira · Apr 20, 2007, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Personally, I think they should just cap the maximum amount of energy you can gain over a period of time. Making energy gain come every 5 seconds makes energy management just plain akward when there is little death occuring, but the old method made energu gain insane when there was large scale deaths. Simply capping energy gain when it gets ridiculous and letting low energy gain remain the same seems the most logical way to fix the problem imo. As for how much energy should be permitted to be gained over a period of time, I will leave to a math wiz.

When I keep hearing this infinite energy gain that the necromacer gets argument it really get my goat. There is a maximim amount of energy you gain. It there in the blue bar. ie. The max energy you have. So if 200 monsters die and I have a max of 55 then I will max at 55 and not 2600.

/notsigned
having to physically reap from a dead body is purely ludicrous or hex something just before it dies.

tenshi_strife · Apr 20, 2007, 06:55 PM // 18:55

i totally agree but anet does not. SR is actually pretty lame energy management lets look at all the others.
Expertise, ABSOLUTLY FREE ENERGY no effort and makes most all things easy and great, way better than SR,
Energy storage, easy increase in max energy making eles caplable to have WAY more energy at all times than a nec, also way better than SR, Mystacism.... ok this just kicks ass, not only does it manage energy its heals you...
Leadership, this is almost unlimited energy with a bunch of people but really this is all a paragons got going for him lol,
critical strikes, HELLO 3 ENERGY A SECOND thats all im saying...

and they nerf SR where you actually ahve to kill something taht doesnt happen all the time AND it has no downtime use......... the only thing necs got going for em is mass deaths which, really ask your self, happen ALMOST NEVER.

so yea i do agree with you but really i am also working to find a solution that both anet and consumers happy.

MithranArkanere · Apr 20, 2007, 11:37 PM // 23:37

You forget Critical Hits.

With skill increaising your critical rate, you get unlimited energy income.

Another interesting solution comes to my mind... it cold be to make 'souls' increase energy regen foor some time.

That is, each tiema an enemy dies, you get +1 pip for 5 seconds per each 3 ranks of Soul Reaping.
With SR at level 15, you'll get +5 pips. With 16, you'll get +6.

Even with continuous deaths you won't get unlimited energy, only some extra regen.

Welll... If +6 is to much, you can always make it so it's each 4 levels, for +4 when 5 deaths happen.

Or decrease the time... eachdath giving 2, 3, 4 seconds of regen...

What about that? Death won't give energy, but regen boost.
Fits quite a lot a necromancer, XD.

Skye Marin · Apr 21, 2007, 12:33 AM // 00:33

A simple and elegant solution would be similar to:

"Whenever a creature dies, you gain one second of +3 energy regeneration for every point you have invested in Soul Reaping. Soul Reaping does not trigger on the deaths of spirits or minions not under your direct control."

This means, if you are regaining energy when something dies, and then something else dies, the regeneration is reset and continues on. A higher rank in SR will cause a longer regeneration which is beneficial when deaths are somewhat spaced out.

Most importantly, energy gain is limited to a flat 3 pips, or, one energy per second. Every death gives a Necro some amount of energy, that is, no deaths flatout wasted like with the 5 second rule. Energy is only not obtained when a series of deaths happen in a short amount of time.

tenshi_strife · Apr 21, 2007, 05:55 AM // 05:55

yea the regen sounds great, but mithran i did cover criticals lol.